Slant Six Forum :: Wheels any good after fire???

: Hi All,
: I just lost a lot of stuff to a fire at a
: storage unit thanks to an arsonist or
: careless person.
:
: I was wondering if my small-bolt pattern wheels
: are any good after being through a fire? 3
: of the appear to have been red hot because
: of the mill scale buildup on them. 3 others
: - (small bolt, 5-1/2" wide) were in a
: different area and appear to not have been
: so hot.
: Any opinions on this?
:
: I don't feel good about the 3 that got really
: hot. The other 3 I would check for warpage
: and run out before using.

: Craig i am a retired firefighter . Been a
: firefighter for 30 years. The mill buildup
: you describe does it look like rust if so it
: oxidation that ocures when steel is heated
: at a hidh temp. Most fires in a building
: reach a temp about 1200 to 1400 drgree .f.
: Steel is heated to a higher temp than that.
: Sand blast them and check for warpage and
: cracks. Hit them with a small hammer and if
: they ring they should be all right. If one
: sounds dull after hitting it with a hammer
: don't use it. This is only a suggestion
: Thanks Ron

: They are unusable. Do not try to run these rims
: on the street. The centers on those rims are
: most likely riveted to the outer shell.
: These rivets no longer have a shrink fit.
: They will come apart even with moderate
: usage. Most likely they will be too warped
: to even consider. Do not try to use them. If
: they have a heavy scale on them this also
: tells you that the carbon is no longer
: dissolved in the alloy. Without it they will
: no longer have the correct strength.

: I was under the impression these were welded
: centers. I guess I was assuming these were
: SBP Ralleys.
: If they are, indeed, riveted, that is a
: question for which I have no answer. I guess
: it would depend on the composition of the
: rivets.
: If they are not riveted, I'd have to say blast
: them clean, inspect them closely (looking
: for cracks), check for warpage and out of
: true. If they check out, I'd have no problem
: using them. That said, I wouldn't sell them
: to anyone else, though.
: My machinery's handbook says that 1600 deg.
: looks cherry red in daylight. Do you think
: it got that hot? Even with a huge propane
: tank and a giant rosebud focused on the
: wheel it would be tough to make the whole
: wheel cherry red. On the other hand, certain
: areas of the wheel may have gotten heated
: and conversely, it may have cooled unevenly.
: If that were the case, I think you'd see
: warpage.
: I don't KNOW how wheels are made. I would guess
: they are just made out of cold rolled sheet
: steel; stamped, rolled and welded.
:
: I believe mild steel(low carbon steel) is not,
: strictly speaking, an alloy. It is an alloy
: steel when it has elements like nickel,
: boron, molybdenum, etc. added to it in the
: molten state. Mild steel has a relatively
: low percentage of carbon in it, that's why
: it's not considered hardenable(like high
: carbon steel).
: When I say percentage of carbon, it is in the
: 0.25%(low)-1.2%(high) range. We are talking
: about a very, very small amount of carbon.

:
: Hi All,
: I just lost a lot of stuff to a fire at a
: storage unit thanks to an arsonist or
: careless person.
:
: I was wondering if my small-bolt pattern wheels
: are any good after being through a fire? 3
: of the appear to have been red hot because
: of the mill scale buildup on them. 3 others
: - (small bolt, 5-1/2" wide) were in a
: different area and appear to not have been
: so hot.
: Any opinions on this?
:
: I don't feel good about the 3 that got really
: hot. The other 3 I would check for warpage
: and run out before using.

Author:	Craig [ Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Wheels any good after fire???
Hi All, I just lost a lot of stuff to a fire at a storage unit thanks to an arsonist or careless person. I was wondering if my small-bolt pattern wheels are any good after being through a fire? 3 of the appear to have been red hot because of the mill scale buildup on them. 3 others - (small bolt, 5-1/2" wide) were in a different area and appear to not have been so hot. Any opinions on this? I don't feel good about the 3 that got really hot. The other 3 I would check for warpage and run out before using. cfield@ll.net

Author:	bud L. [ Sat Aug 10, 2002 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wheels any good after fire???
Quote: : Hi All, : I just lost a lot of stuff to a fire at a : storage unit thanks to an arsonist or : careless person. : : I was wondering if my small-bolt pattern wheels : are any good after being through a fire? 3 : of the appear to have been red hot because : of the mill scale buildup on them. 3 others : - (small bolt, 5-1/2" wide) were in a : different area and appear to not have been : so hot. : Any opinions on this? : : I don't feel good about the 3 that got really : hot. The other 3 I would check for warpage : and run out before using. I understand you having reservations, but I believe they are just made of mild steel. As long as they are not warped or bent, I don't think you have anything to worry about. If you wish, you could send them out and have them stress-relieved. But, I think that's what already happened. They just didn't ask your permission, first. fglmopar@aol.com

Author:	Ron Parker [ Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wheels any good after fire???
Craig i am a retired firefighter . Been a firefighter for 30 years. The mill buildup you describe does it look like rust if so it oxidation that ocures when steel is heated at a hidh temp. Most fires in a building reach a temp about 1200 to 1400 drgree .f. Steel is heated to a higher temp than that. Sand blast them and check for warpage and cracks. Hit them with a small hammer and if they ring they should be all right. If one sounds dull after hitting it with a hammer don't use it. This is only a suggestion Thanks Ron rpracing@catt.com

Author:	bud L. [ Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wheels any good after fire???
Quote: : Craig i am a retired firefighter . Been a : firefighter for 30 years. The mill buildup : you describe does it look like rust if so it : oxidation that ocures when steel is heated : at a hidh temp. Most fires in a building : reach a temp about 1200 to 1400 drgree .f. : Steel is heated to a higher temp than that. : Sand blast them and check for warpage and : cracks. Hit them with a small hammer and if : they ring they should be all right. If one : sounds dull after hitting it with a hammer : don't use it. This is only a suggestion : Thanks Ron Coincidentally, I am in the process of making a sl/6 torque plate, and I just got the plate back from the heat treaters. The heat record for the stress relieving shows that they heated it to 1200 deg. F in about 3 hours, held it there for 5 hrs, and then cooled it over 12 hours. fglmopar@aol.com

Author:	Racer Dude [ Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wheels any good after fire???
Quote: : Hi All, : I just lost a lot of stuff to a fire at a : storage unit thanks to an arsonist or : careless person. : : I was wondering if my small-bolt pattern wheels : are any good after being through a fire? 3 : of the appear to have been red hot because : of the mill scale buildup on them. 3 others : - (small bolt, 5-1/2" wide) were in a : different area and appear to not have been : so hot. : Any opinions on this? : : I don't feel good about the 3 that got really : hot. The other 3 I would check for warpage : and run out before using. They are unusable. Do not try to run these rims on the street. The centers on those rims are most likely riveted to the outer shell. These rivets no longer have a shrink fit. They will come apart even with moderate usage. Most likely they will be too warped to even consider. Do not try to use them. If they have a heavy scale on them this also tells you that the carbon is no longer dissolved in the alloy. Without it they will no longer have the correct strength. dnedwards@willmar.com

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Author:	bud L. [ Sun Aug 11, 2002 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wheels any good after fire???
Quote: : They are unusable. Do not try to run these rims : on the street. The centers on those rims are : most likely riveted to the outer shell. : These rivets no longer have a shrink fit. : They will come apart even with moderate : usage. Most likely they will be too warped : to even consider. Do not try to use them. If : they have a heavy scale on them this also : tells you that the carbon is no longer : dissolved in the alloy. Without it they will : no longer have the correct strength. I was under the impression these were welded centers. I guess I was assuming these were SBP Ralleys. If they are, indeed, riveted, that is a question for which I have no answer. I guess it would depend on the composition of the rivets. If they are not riveted, I'd have to say blast them clean, inspect them closely (looking for cracks), check for warpage and out of true. If they check out, I'd have no problem using them. That said, I wouldn't sell them to anyone else, though. My machinery's handbook says that 1600 deg. looks cherry red in daylight. Do you think it got that hot? Even with a huge propane tank and a giant rosebud focused on the wheel it would be tough to make the whole wheel cherry red. On the other hand, certain areas of the wheel may have gotten heated and conversely, it may have cooled unevenly. If that were the case, I think you'd see warpage. I don't KNOW how wheels are made. I would guess they are just made out of cold rolled sheet steel; stamped, rolled and welded. I believe mild steel(low carbon steel) is not, strictly speaking, an alloy. It is an alloy steel when it has elements like nickel, boron, molybdenum, etc. added to it in the molten state. Mild steel has a relatively low percentage of carbon in it, that's why it's not considered hardenable(like high carbon steel). When I say percentage of carbon, it is in the 0.25%(low)-1.2%(high) range. We are talking about a very, very small amount of carbon. fglmopar@aol.com

Author:	Racer Dude [ Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Wheels any good after fire???
Quote: : I was under the impression these were welded : centers. I guess I was assuming these were : SBP Ralleys. : If they are, indeed, riveted, that is a : question for which I have no answer. I guess : it would depend on the composition of the : rivets. : If they are not riveted, I'd have to say blast : them clean, inspect them closely (looking : for cracks), check for warpage and out of : true. If they check out, I'd have no problem : using them. That said, I wouldn't sell them : to anyone else, though. : My machinery's handbook says that 1600 deg. : looks cherry red in daylight. Do you think : it got that hot? Even with a huge propane : tank and a giant rosebud focused on the : wheel it would be tough to make the whole : wheel cherry red. On the other hand, certain : areas of the wheel may have gotten heated : and conversely, it may have cooled unevenly. : If that were the case, I think you'd see : warpage. : I don't KNOW how wheels are made. I would guess : they are just made out of cold rolled sheet : steel; stamped, rolled and welded. : : I believe mild steel(low carbon steel) is not, : strictly speaking, an alloy. It is an alloy : steel when it has elements like nickel, : boron, molybdenum, etc. added to it in the : molten state. Mild steel has a relatively : low percentage of carbon in it, that's why : it's not considered hardenable(like high : carbon steel). : When I say percentage of carbon, it is in the : 0.25%(low)-1.2%(high) range. We are talking : about a very, very small amount of carbon. These perhaps were welded center rims. Even so it does not alter second part of my post concerning strength. Yes, they would be made of a mild steel. Most likely, (I cannot find a definitive source for the materials used) 1006 - 1015. Carbon content of .06% to .15% These steels are readily welded and fairly easily cold formed. However they will not take even moderately high temperatures (above say 1000 F) and maintain strength. Above .30% and the steels can be hardened without the introduction of any further carbon, either through induction or flame. I had to dig out my Machinery's Handbook to find the section on cold formed low carbon steel. The following is from the Machinery's handbook. "When under 0.15 carbon, the steels are susceptible to serious grain growth, causing brittleness, which may occur as the result of critical strain (from cold work) followed by heating to certain elevated temperatures. If cold worked parts formed from these steels are to be later heated to temperatures in excess of 1100 degree F., the user should exercise care to avoid trouble from this cause." It goes on to talk about reheating above the the upper critical point of the alloy, 1750 degrees F., to repair the damaged grain structure. I believe the wheels are unsafe to use and would not use them. I have seen many steel wheels break. These sound like a prime candidate to cause an accident. dnedwards@willmar.com

Author:	Ron Parker [ Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Wheels any good after fire???
Craig i checked with some of my firefighting experts on the subject of the wheels. It is impossible to know the temp of a burning building like a shop or where there are stored chemicals ie gas , ect. Since this was a uncontroled envioment I would not take a chance on them. I know how hard small bolt pattern wheels are to find but i would better be safe as sorry . Thanks Ron rpracing@catt.com

Author:	69dart [ Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Willamette Custom Wheel Service
Hello Craig What part of the world are you in? I am near Portland Oregon and there is a wheel company that does custom work on wheels, you may ask them what they think. If you need them I have a set of small bolt 5.5" wheels. I was kind of saving them for a future car but I may let them go If you need them and are close. Willamette Custom Wheel Service 503-232-8141 Good luck Steve Quote: : : Hi All, : I just lost a lot of stuff to a fire at a : storage unit thanks to an arsonist or : careless person. : : I was wondering if my small-bolt pattern wheels : are any good after being through a fire? 3 : of the appear to have been red hot because : of the mill scale buildup on them. 3 others : - (small bolt, 5-1/2" wide) were in a : different area and appear to not have been : so hot. : Any opinions on this? : : I don't feel good about the 3 that got really : hot. The other 3 I would check for warpage : and run out before using.

Author:	Craig [ Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Willamette Custom Wheel Service
I'm in Minnesota. I might be able to find some in a local salvage yard if I'm lucky. However, there are not too many A-body cars left in the salvage yards around here. I only want regular wheels that use hubcaps, not the Ralleye wheels. I have 4-1/2" wide wheels on my car now. That limits me to P185/75R14 tires. If I had the 5-1/2" wheels then I could use P195 or larger tires. Somewhere on the internet I found information that said Gremlin front brake drums will fit on the late A-bodies and they have 4.5" bolt pattern. Then perhaps redrilling the rear axle flanges to accept 4.5" bc wheels? Then I can easily get wheels. Some of the wheels I lost in the fire were stamped "Made in USA". I have one 5.5" wide, small bolt wheel, that came on my Valiant that is stamped "Made in Canada". I don't think I lost that one in the fire, it should be in my shed. cfield@ll.net

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